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	<title>Comments for 神學網 Theology Etc.</title>
	<atom:link href="http://herewestand.org/blog/index.php/comments/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://herewestand.org/blog</link>
	<description>曾劭愷 Alex Shaokai Tseng</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 20 Feb 2012 10:52:34 -0800</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on 為何學習「歸正神學」？ by John J</title>
		<link>http://herewestand.org/blog/2012/02/14/%e7%82%ba%e4%bd%95%e5%ad%b8%e7%bf%92%e3%80%8c%e6%ad%b8%e6%ad%a3%e7%a5%9e%e5%ad%b8%e3%80%8d%ef%bc%9f/#comment-18265</link>
		<dc:creator>John J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Feb 2012 10:52:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://herewestand.org/blog/?p=664#comment-18265</guid>
		<description>看了任不寐的文章，觉得他批判的所谓“加尔文主义”，实质上是“hyper-Calvinism&quot;, 这恰好说明他不懂加尔文主义。</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>看了任不寐的文章，觉得他批判的所谓“加尔文主义”，实质上是“hyper-Calvinism&#8221;, 这恰好说明他不懂加尔文主义。</p>
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		<title>Comment on 為何學習「歸正神學」？ by ardmore</title>
		<link>http://herewestand.org/blog/2012/02/14/%e7%82%ba%e4%bd%95%e5%ad%b8%e7%bf%92%e3%80%8c%e6%ad%b8%e6%ad%a3%e7%a5%9e%e5%ad%b8%e3%80%8d%ef%bc%9f/#comment-18206</link>
		<dc:creator>ardmore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Feb 2012 02:23:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://herewestand.org/blog/?p=664#comment-18206</guid>
		<description>曾弟兄对任不寐最近批判加尔文主义怎么看？
他的blog--不寐之夜: http://blog.ifeng.com/1247038.html
显然造成了一些主内弟兄姐妹的思想混乱。
我个人认为，当然要防止惟理主义，也不能忽略基督教的历史性和教义性。若惟独觉得自己对圣经的领受最准确，把历代圣徒踩在脚下，藐视圣灵对历代教会的光照，恐怕也很危险！</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>曾弟兄对任不寐最近批判加尔文主义怎么看？<br />
他的blog&#8211;不寐之夜: <a href="http://blog.ifeng.com/1247038.html" rel="nofollow">http://blog.ifeng.com/1247038.html</a><br />
显然造成了一些主内弟兄姐妹的思想混乱。<br />
我个人认为，当然要防止惟理主义，也不能忽略基督教的历史性和教义性。若惟独觉得自己对圣经的领受最准确，把历代圣徒踩在脚下，藐视圣灵对历代教会的光照，恐怕也很危险！</p>
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		<title>Comment on 雅加達遊後感：「活在神面前」的歸正精神 by Administrator</title>
		<link>http://herewestand.org/blog/2012/02/08/%e9%9b%85%e5%8a%a0%e9%81%94%e9%81%8a%e5%be%8c%e6%84%9f%ef%bc%9a%e3%80%8c%e6%b4%bb%e5%9c%a8%e7%a5%9e%e9%9d%a2%e5%89%8d%e3%80%8d%e7%9a%84%e6%ad%b8%e6%ad%a3%e7%b2%be%e7%a5%9e/#comment-18025</link>
		<dc:creator>Administrator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 23:36:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://herewestand.org/blog/?p=618#comment-18025</guid>
		<description>Hi John,

謝謝你提出這很重要的問題。我想現在還不是我來處理這問題的時機，所以我就簡短提幾句，不多作論述。首先，唐牧師自己知道「基督人性非受造」乃是他的創見，與整個基督教正統對立，所以他自己很小心。那天我跟 David Tong 聯合起來，就是跟他辯論這個，到最後，他承認這問題他還沒想清楚，他也請我將教會歷史上相關的神學文獻整理出來，供他參考，因為我所提到的那些重要基督論著作，他都沒讀過。他也澄清，他的立場並非「基督人性非受造」，而是「基督的人性有沒有可能不是受造的？」，只是對整個教會正統提出疑問，但他自己尚無確定答案。

任何對基督教神學有點粗淺認識的人都知道，自迦克敦會議以來，「基督人性受造」乃所有正統神學家的立場，而少數反對這立場的人，都被定為異端。唐牧師自己也很明白，他的想法偏離整個基督教正統，因此他不敢輕易下定論。莫名其妙的是，很多自認跟隨唐牧師的人，把他提出的一個疑問絕對化，變成了他們的神學立場，甚至以為歷代改革宗正統都主張「基督人性非受造」。這些人完全不明白唐牧師的用意，而他們對於教會歷史上的基督論，連最粗淺的認識都沒有。

我現在先不在這議題上多作發表，等我整理好資料，給唐牧師看過後，看他反應如何，我再作論述。謝謝！

Alex</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi John,</p>
<p>謝謝你提出這很重要的問題。我想現在還不是我來處理這問題的時機，所以我就簡短提幾句，不多作論述。首先，唐牧師自己知道「基督人性非受造」乃是他的創見，與整個基督教正統對立，所以他自己很小心。那天我跟 David Tong 聯合起來，就是跟他辯論這個，到最後，他承認這問題他還沒想清楚，他也請我將教會歷史上相關的神學文獻整理出來，供他參考，因為我所提到的那些重要基督論著作，他都沒讀過。他也澄清，他的立場並非「基督人性非受造」，而是「基督的人性有沒有可能不是受造的？」，只是對整個教會正統提出疑問，但他自己尚無確定答案。</p>
<p>任何對基督教神學有點粗淺認識的人都知道，自迦克敦會議以來，「基督人性受造」乃所有正統神學家的立場，而少數反對這立場的人，都被定為異端。唐牧師自己也很明白，他的想法偏離整個基督教正統，因此他不敢輕易下定論。莫名其妙的是，很多自認跟隨唐牧師的人，把他提出的一個疑問絕對化，變成了他們的神學立場，甚至以為歷代改革宗正統都主張「基督人性非受造」。這些人完全不明白唐牧師的用意，而他們對於教會歷史上的基督論，連最粗淺的認識都沒有。</p>
<p>我現在先不在這議題上多作發表，等我整理好資料，給唐牧師看過後，看他反應如何，我再作論述。謝謝！</p>
<p>Alex</p>
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		<title>Comment on 雅加達遊後感：「活在神面前」的歸正精神 by John Jiang</title>
		<link>http://herewestand.org/blog/2012/02/08/%e9%9b%85%e5%8a%a0%e9%81%94%e9%81%8a%e5%be%8c%e6%84%9f%ef%bc%9a%e3%80%8c%e6%b4%bb%e5%9c%a8%e7%a5%9e%e9%9d%a2%e5%89%8d%e3%80%8d%e7%9a%84%e6%ad%b8%e6%ad%a3%e7%b2%be%e7%a5%9e/#comment-18012</link>
		<dc:creator>John Jiang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 14:10:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://herewestand.org/blog/?p=618#comment-18012</guid>
		<description>Alex,

网上一篇文章说唐牧师领军的“改革宗归正神学”否认‘基督人性是被造’的这个符合基督教正统教义（http://bbs.cgdepot.net/viewthread.php?tid=12062）。想知道你了解的情况是怎么样的？

另外，能否就“基督人性是被造”这个议题多谈一点。

谢谢

John</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alex,</p>
<p>网上一篇文章说唐牧师领军的“改革宗归正神学”否认‘基督人性是被造’的这个符合基督教正统教义（http://bbs.cgdepot.net/viewthread.php?tid=12062）。想知道你了解的情况是怎么样的？</p>
<p>另外，能否就“基督人性是被造”这个议题多谈一点。</p>
<p>谢谢</p>
<p>John</p>
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		<title>Comment on Possibility of a Christian Philosophy Today by Administrator</title>
		<link>http://herewestand.org/blog/2012/02/08/possibility-of-a-christian-philosophy-today/#comment-17888</link>
		<dc:creator>Administrator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 13:45:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://herewestand.org/blog/?p=615#comment-17888</guid>
		<description>I might add that Heidegger had his own take on &quot;impossible possibility&quot; as well, with which Derrida also engaged seriously. Heidegger&#039;s notion of death as impossible possibility shares some points of similarities with the later Barth&#039;s usage of the dialectic to describe &quot;nothingness,&quot; which is manifest in the forms of &quot;evil, sin and death.&quot; By contrast, the early Barth uses the term &quot;impossible possibility&quot; only to describe God&#039;s omnipotent acts that actualistically triumph over human impossibilities. The discourses on &quot;impossible possibility&quot; found in Heidegger and the later Barth do not seem to me to be substantively related to Prof. N&#039;s modal logic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I might add that Heidegger had his own take on &#8220;impossible possibility&#8221; as well, with which Derrida also engaged seriously. Heidegger&#8217;s notion of death as impossible possibility shares some points of similarities with the later Barth&#8217;s usage of the dialectic to describe &#8220;nothingness,&#8221; which is manifest in the forms of &#8220;evil, sin and death.&#8221; By contrast, the early Barth uses the term &#8220;impossible possibility&#8221; only to describe God&#8217;s omnipotent acts that actualistically triumph over human impossibilities. The discourses on &#8220;impossible possibility&#8221; found in Heidegger and the later Barth do not seem to me to be substantively related to Prof. N&#8217;s modal logic.</p>
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		<title>Comment on 雅加達遊後感：「活在神面前」的歸正精神 by Elaine</title>
		<link>http://herewestand.org/blog/2012/02/08/%e9%9b%85%e5%8a%a0%e9%81%94%e9%81%8a%e5%be%8c%e6%84%9f%ef%bc%9a%e3%80%8c%e6%b4%bb%e5%9c%a8%e7%a5%9e%e9%9d%a2%e5%89%8d%e3%80%8d%e7%9a%84%e6%ad%b8%e6%ad%a3%e7%b2%be%e7%a5%9e/#comment-17858</link>
		<dc:creator>Elaine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 02:34:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://herewestand.org/blog/?p=618#comment-17858</guid>
		<description>Alex，讀了你的這篇文字非常感動，從“和我一起去雅加達”到最後的“把基督的福音傳到地極”。反思很多時候自己做事不夠嚴謹，反而覺得嚴謹的人有些古板，然而在事奉神的這件事上“一絲不苟”確實應該的，他們的團隊讓我想起建立會幕、聖殿的那些經文，由此又想到如何可以盡自己的恩賜到最大的問題，無論是在教會還是在職場上。最近常因一些小問題而有懈怠，情緒不穩，卻沒有看到神的恩典，實在羞愧，感謝主，通過你的這篇文字來責備、激勵和引導我，謝謝你，榮耀歸於主。（謹防拜偶像，呵呵）</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alex，讀了你的這篇文字非常感動，從“和我一起去雅加達”到最後的“把基督的福音傳到地極”。反思很多時候自己做事不夠嚴謹，反而覺得嚴謹的人有些古板，然而在事奉神的這件事上“一絲不苟”確實應該的，他們的團隊讓我想起建立會幕、聖殿的那些經文，由此又想到如何可以盡自己的恩賜到最大的問題，無論是在教會還是在職場上。最近常因一些小問題而有懈怠，情緒不穩，卻沒有看到神的恩典，實在羞愧，感謝主，通過你的這篇文字來責備、激勵和引導我，謝謝你，榮耀歸於主。（謹防拜偶像，呵呵）</p>
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		<title>Comment on 以斯拉的敗筆：律法主義 by Administrator</title>
		<link>http://herewestand.org/blog/2012/02/05/609/#comment-17745</link>
		<dc:creator>Administrator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Feb 2012 16:01:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://herewestand.org/blog/?p=609#comment-17745</guid>
		<description>大牛：曾弟兄，您好！刚刚拜读您的新作。首先要感谢您的写作，对我助益良多，一直没有机会表达感谢，在此补上。其次，我想表达一点对这篇文章的不同意见（最近比较忙，也许有机会可以就此写点）：第一，我们不能因为以斯拉只是祭司，并且是他主动与神立约，就轻易断言这约有问题。John Murray在其《恩典之约》中详细分析了旧约中“约”的概念，指出“约”在旧约就有三种形式：人与人立约，神主动与人立约，人主动与神立约，最后一种形式，其本质对对第二种形式的回应，是对前者的更新或确立。后者是否合理，主要还是看其内容是否与前者相符。并且，后者可以由祭司代表或呼召全体民众立的（因为祭司同时具有教导律法，评断违法，呼召悔改的职能，王下11:17；23:3）；第二，有学者指出，以斯拉-尼希米记具有Chiasm的结构，而中心正是拉9-10（David Dorcey，The Literary Structure of the Old Testament），这意味着这部分正是拉-尼作者的写作重点，也与这两卷书的主旨相符合：即借着悔改（伴随着行为）回应神复兴的应许，从而fulfill复兴。实际上，我确实很难看出作者在字里行间有对这种离婚行为的否定。第三，我同意新约的教导是反对离婚（不论配偶是否是信徒），但这里经文的解释最好是根据“圣经神学”的渐进性脉络在约的进展中进行有机调整，同时考虑其continuity和discontinuity，而不是全然否定。以上只是我的一些初步想法，或有不对，权作探讨。

筆者：
Thanks for the information. It’s very helpful in giving me the opportunity to clarify some points. As I said, the divorce per se does not constitutes legalism. I wrote: “in particular cases such a divorce might have pleased God.” My point was that the Pharisaism lies in the fact that Ezra made the divorce a covenant requirement–I will explain this in view of Murray’s categorization of OT covenants later.

Speaking of Biblical Theology, the chiasm that you pointed out underscores the structural and thus formal centrality of Ezra 9-10, but it says nothing about the content or theological message of the passage.

Narrative critics such as Robert Alter, and commentators who have developed narrative-critical insights of their own such as Bruce Waltke (from a dogmatic viewpoint I completely recognise the theological errors in some of their presuppositions, but that pertains to another discussion), have pointed out that OT authors often use literary structure as a means to convey theological commentary. Chiasm, to give one example that you’ve mentioned, serves to highlight the passage that lies at the centre of the chiastic structure. There are yet other literary structures, such as “parallel commentary” (e.g. the account of Judah in Genesis 38 serving as a commentary on the account of Joseph in the rest of the chapter, and vice versa).

Another form of intra-textual commentary is authorial silence. The Book of Esther is the classic case: the author is completely silent about God, who is not mentioned at all in the entire Book. This silence underscores the theological point that God works providentially through the most ordinary events, and that divine miracles don’t just take place in ways that are beyond the natural order of things.

There is a more prevalent form of silence on the part of the author or the characters in the OT. Robert Alter points out, “When someone’s silence is actually isolated for narration, we may infer that the refusal or avoidance of speech is itself a significant link in the concatenation of the plot” (Art of Biblical Narrative, 100). Such a silence normally conveys disapproval, condemnation, or other forms of negation. For example, the “hiatus of silence” between Genesis 42:1-2 is a confirmation of “Jacob’s charge that his sons were simply standing there” despite the threat of the famine (ibid., 200).

Authorial silence about God’s response to the Israelites in Ezra 9-10 can also be understood as a form of negative silence. The Israelites make a covenant with God, in which they added artificial requirements to the Law of God. Their aim was obviously to please God so that by their repentance they could bring about the restoration of Israel. However, as I pointed out: “Never once does the Author say in Ezra 10 that God was pleased with the man-made covenant. Never once does this text say that God was delighted when the Jews divorced their pagan spouses. Never once does the Bible tell us that God had forgiven these people because of the divorce.”

Of course, you have argued that the author does not say that God punished them or was offended by their actions either. But consider this: in effect, the author is telling us that the Israelites said and did a whole lot of things to try to please God, but God didn’t respond to them at all. Can this lack of response be understood as God’s silent approval of what they said and did? (If I may demonstrate this in a not-so-academic way), imagine if you said and did a whole lot of things in an attempt to please your parents, but they respond with nothing but silence. Could this have been a silent approval? The fact is, the Israelites were expecting something, and God responded by not giving to them what they expected. Would this not be better explained as God’s silent disapproval?

We can delve even deeper into Biblical Theology (which does underlie my writings even though it might not appear explicitly so). Authorial silence on God’s response towards the Israelites in Ezra 9-10, I propose, can be understood in light of canonical intertextuality: this was precisely the period in which God gave Israel her very last prophets in the Old Testament. Interestingly, in Ezra 9-10 the author does not relate the promises and blessings in Haggai and Zechariah whatsoever, nor do the two prophets respond to the man-made covenant in Ezra 9-10. It would be a defensible thesis to say that Ezra 9-10 was the starting point that consequently (and soon) brought about the Period of Silence between the last prophets and John the Baptist–though I do not claim to have done enough research to sustain this thesis.

Now, onto the topic of the covenant. I basically agree with you on the three kinds of covenants in the Old Testament, for I am a reader of Murray as well. Murray’s formulation is one way of stating the matter; I agree with the content of his formulation, but I don’t necessarily use the same categorization (I will explain this later).

In Murray’s formulation, there is, as you pointed out, a third category of covenants, namely, ones that believers make with God. Murray’s observation is of course true. However, this has to be qualified with very careful delimitations. When a man makes a covenant with God, if this covenant is to be valid in the divine-human relation, then, as you said, it has to correspond to a covenant that God has already made with men. The man-to-God covenant can be nothing but a renewal or reconfirmation of a God-to-man covenant. In this sense, then, the man-to-God covenant is not really man-t0-God, nor is it really a different type of a covenant. As we see in Jeremiah 34, the prophet speaks in the voice of God, saying that the Israelites had once repented and made covenants with God–the “covenants that they had made” (verses 15, 18). Surely the Israelites were in one sense–secundum quid–the makers of the covenant. Yet, in verse 18, Yahweh calls this covenant “MY covenant”. The covenant was really God’s! God was simpliciter the one who made the covenant, not the Israelites! The Israelites made the covenant only secundum quid, not simpliciter! All that the Israelites did was to re-establish their allegiance to an already-exiting covenant, and only in this sense was the covenant described as having been made by men. Only under this delimitation is a priest allowed to make a covenant with God, but in this sense, the priest is not really making the covenant, because he is not speaking prophetically about any new revelation, nor is he setting any new terms for or giving any new content to the covenant.

But what did Ezra do? Ezra set new terms and conditions for the covenant. He conjured up new covenantal requirements as a priest, not a prophet. He was making a covenant ex nihilo, rather than renewing the covenant that God had made with Israel! This certainly does not fit into Murray’s third category of OT covenants–which in the first instance is not really a self-standing category at all anyway. Thus I do not think Murray’s categorization of OT covenants can be invoked to justify Ezra’s act of making a covenant with God.

In short, I still think that Ezra’s man-made covenant was the seed of Pharisaism in Second-Temple Judaism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>大牛：曾弟兄，您好！刚刚拜读您的新作。首先要感谢您的写作，对我助益良多，一直没有机会表达感谢，在此补上。其次，我想表达一点对这篇文章的不同意见（最近比较忙，也许有机会可以就此写点）：第一，我们不能因为以斯拉只是祭司，并且是他主动与神立约，就轻易断言这约有问题。John Murray在其《恩典之约》中详细分析了旧约中“约”的概念，指出“约”在旧约就有三种形式：人与人立约，神主动与人立约，人主动与神立约，最后一种形式，其本质对对第二种形式的回应，是对前者的更新或确立。后者是否合理，主要还是看其内容是否与前者相符。并且，后者可以由祭司代表或呼召全体民众立的（因为祭司同时具有教导律法，评断违法，呼召悔改的职能，王下11:17；23:3）；第二，有学者指出，以斯拉-尼希米记具有Chiasm的结构，而中心正是拉9-10（David Dorcey，The Literary Structure of the Old Testament），这意味着这部分正是拉-尼作者的写作重点，也与这两卷书的主旨相符合：即借着悔改（伴随着行为）回应神复兴的应许，从而fulfill复兴。实际上，我确实很难看出作者在字里行间有对这种离婚行为的否定。第三，我同意新约的教导是反对离婚（不论配偶是否是信徒），但这里经文的解释最好是根据“圣经神学”的渐进性脉络在约的进展中进行有机调整，同时考虑其continuity和discontinuity，而不是全然否定。以上只是我的一些初步想法，或有不对，权作探讨。</p>
<p>筆者：<br />
Thanks for the information. It’s very helpful in giving me the opportunity to clarify some points. As I said, the divorce per se does not constitutes legalism. I wrote: “in particular cases such a divorce might have pleased God.” My point was that the Pharisaism lies in the fact that Ezra made the divorce a covenant requirement–I will explain this in view of Murray’s categorization of OT covenants later.</p>
<p>Speaking of Biblical Theology, the chiasm that you pointed out underscores the structural and thus formal centrality of Ezra 9-10, but it says nothing about the content or theological message of the passage.</p>
<p>Narrative critics such as Robert Alter, and commentators who have developed narrative-critical insights of their own such as Bruce Waltke (from a dogmatic viewpoint I completely recognise the theological errors in some of their presuppositions, but that pertains to another discussion), have pointed out that OT authors often use literary structure as a means to convey theological commentary. Chiasm, to give one example that you’ve mentioned, serves to highlight the passage that lies at the centre of the chiastic structure. There are yet other literary structures, such as “parallel commentary” (e.g. the account of Judah in Genesis 38 serving as a commentary on the account of Joseph in the rest of the chapter, and vice versa).</p>
<p>Another form of intra-textual commentary is authorial silence. The Book of Esther is the classic case: the author is completely silent about God, who is not mentioned at all in the entire Book. This silence underscores the theological point that God works providentially through the most ordinary events, and that divine miracles don’t just take place in ways that are beyond the natural order of things.</p>
<p>There is a more prevalent form of silence on the part of the author or the characters in the OT. Robert Alter points out, “When someone’s silence is actually isolated for narration, we may infer that the refusal or avoidance of speech is itself a significant link in the concatenation of the plot” (Art of Biblical Narrative, 100). Such a silence normally conveys disapproval, condemnation, or other forms of negation. For example, the “hiatus of silence” between Genesis 42:1-2 is a confirmation of “Jacob’s charge that his sons were simply standing there” despite the threat of the famine (ibid., 200).</p>
<p>Authorial silence about God’s response to the Israelites in Ezra 9-10 can also be understood as a form of negative silence. The Israelites make a covenant with God, in which they added artificial requirements to the Law of God. Their aim was obviously to please God so that by their repentance they could bring about the restoration of Israel. However, as I pointed out: “Never once does the Author say in Ezra 10 that God was pleased with the man-made covenant. Never once does this text say that God was delighted when the Jews divorced their pagan spouses. Never once does the Bible tell us that God had forgiven these people because of the divorce.”</p>
<p>Of course, you have argued that the author does not say that God punished them or was offended by their actions either. But consider this: in effect, the author is telling us that the Israelites said and did a whole lot of things to try to please God, but God didn’t respond to them at all. Can this lack of response be understood as God’s silent approval of what they said and did? (If I may demonstrate this in a not-so-academic way), imagine if you said and did a whole lot of things in an attempt to please your parents, but they respond with nothing but silence. Could this have been a silent approval? The fact is, the Israelites were expecting something, and God responded by not giving to them what they expected. Would this not be better explained as God’s silent disapproval?</p>
<p>We can delve even deeper into Biblical Theology (which does underlie my writings even though it might not appear explicitly so). Authorial silence on God’s response towards the Israelites in Ezra 9-10, I propose, can be understood in light of canonical intertextuality: this was precisely the period in which God gave Israel her very last prophets in the Old Testament. Interestingly, in Ezra 9-10 the author does not relate the promises and blessings in Haggai and Zechariah whatsoever, nor do the two prophets respond to the man-made covenant in Ezra 9-10. It would be a defensible thesis to say that Ezra 9-10 was the starting point that consequently (and soon) brought about the Period of Silence between the last prophets and John the Baptist–though I do not claim to have done enough research to sustain this thesis.</p>
<p>Now, onto the topic of the covenant. I basically agree with you on the three kinds of covenants in the Old Testament, for I am a reader of Murray as well. Murray’s formulation is one way of stating the matter; I agree with the content of his formulation, but I don’t necessarily use the same categorization (I will explain this later).</p>
<p>In Murray’s formulation, there is, as you pointed out, a third category of covenants, namely, ones that believers make with God. Murray’s observation is of course true. However, this has to be qualified with very careful delimitations. When a man makes a covenant with God, if this covenant is to be valid in the divine-human relation, then, as you said, it has to correspond to a covenant that God has already made with men. The man-to-God covenant can be nothing but a renewal or reconfirmation of a God-to-man covenant. In this sense, then, the man-to-God covenant is not really man-t0-God, nor is it really a different type of a covenant. As we see in Jeremiah 34, the prophet speaks in the voice of God, saying that the Israelites had once repented and made covenants with God–the “covenants that they had made” (verses 15, 18). Surely the Israelites were in one sense–secundum quid–the makers of the covenant. Yet, in verse 18, Yahweh calls this covenant “MY covenant”. The covenant was really God’s! God was simpliciter the one who made the covenant, not the Israelites! The Israelites made the covenant only secundum quid, not simpliciter! All that the Israelites did was to re-establish their allegiance to an already-exiting covenant, and only in this sense was the covenant described as having been made by men. Only under this delimitation is a priest allowed to make a covenant with God, but in this sense, the priest is not really making the covenant, because he is not speaking prophetically about any new revelation, nor is he setting any new terms for or giving any new content to the covenant.</p>
<p>But what did Ezra do? Ezra set new terms and conditions for the covenant. He conjured up new covenantal requirements as a priest, not a prophet. He was making a covenant ex nihilo, rather than renewing the covenant that God had made with Israel! This certainly does not fit into Murray’s third category of OT covenants–which in the first instance is not really a self-standing category at all anyway. Thus I do not think Murray’s categorization of OT covenants can be invoked to justify Ezra’s act of making a covenant with God.</p>
<p>In short, I still think that Ezra’s man-made covenant was the seed of Pharisaism in Second-Temple Judaism.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>Comment on Ezra&#8217;s Legalistic Failure by John J</title>
		<link>http://herewestand.org/blog/2012/02/03/ezras-legalistic-failure/#comment-17711</link>
		<dc:creator>John J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Feb 2012 15:06:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://herewestand.org/blog/?p=605#comment-17711</guid>
		<description>Can you just post the translation here, would be very helpful to many:-）</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can you just post the translation here, would be very helpful to many:-）</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>Comment on Ezra&#8217;s Legalistic Failure by cello</title>
		<link>http://herewestand.org/blog/2012/02/03/ezras-legalistic-failure/#comment-17703</link>
		<dc:creator>cello</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Feb 2012 05:17:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://herewestand.org/blog/?p=605#comment-17703</guid>
		<description>Thanks for your clear discourse. There is order in Lord’s work, and right positioning of ourselves is the prerequisite before serving in accordance with His order.
Just tried translation and sent it to your ox email address. Hope you don’t mind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your clear discourse. There is order in Lord’s work, and right positioning of ourselves is the prerequisite before serving in accordance with His order.<br />
Just tried translation and sent it to your ox email address. Hope you don’t mind.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>Comment on Ezra&#8217;s Legalistic Failure by Administrator</title>
		<link>http://herewestand.org/blog/2012/02/03/ezras-legalistic-failure/#comment-17691</link>
		<dc:creator>Administrator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2012 21:18:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://herewestand.org/blog/?p=605#comment-17691</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the information. It&#039;s very helpful in giving me the opportunity to clarify some points. As I said, the divorce per se does not constitutes legalism. I wrote: &quot;in particular cases such a divorce might have pleased God.&quot; My point was that the Pharisaism lies in the fact that Ezra made the divorce a covenant requirement--I will explain this in view of Murray&#039;s categorization of OT covenants later. 

Speaking of Biblical Theology, the chiasm that you pointed out underscores the structural and thus formal centrality of Ezra 9-10, but it says nothing about the content or theological message of the passage. 

Narrative critics such as Robert Alter, and commentators who have developed narrative-critical insights of their own such as Bruce Waltke (from a dogmatic viewpoint I completely recognise the theological errors in some of their presuppositions, but that pertains to another discussion), have pointed out that OT authors often use literary structure as a means to convey theological commentary. Chiasm, to give one example that you&#039;ve mentioned, serves to highlight the passage that lies at the centre of the chiastic structure. There are yet other literary structures, such as &quot;parallel commentary&quot; (e.g. the account of Judah in Genesis 38 serving as a commentary on the account of Joseph in the rest of the chapter, and vice versa). 

Another form of intra-textual commentary is authorial silence. The Book of Esther is the classic case: the author is completely silent about God, who is not mentioned at all in the entire Book. This silence underscores the theological point that God works providentially through the most ordinary events, and that divine miracles don&#039;t just take place in ways that are beyond the natural order of things.

There is a more prevalent form of silence on the part of the author or the characters in the OT. Robert Alter points out, &quot;When someone&#039;s silence is actually isolated for narration, we may infer that the refusal or avoidance of speech is itself a significant link in the concatenation of the plot&quot; (Art of Biblical Narrative, 100). Such a silence normally conveys disapproval, condemnation, or other forms of negation. For example, the &quot;hiatus of silence&quot; between Genesis 42:1-2 is a confirmation of &quot;Jacob&#039;s charge that his sons were simply standing there&quot; despite the threat of the famine (ibid., 200).

Authorial silence about God&#039;s response to the Israelites in Ezra 9-10 can also be understood as a form of negative silence. The Israelites make a covenant with God, in which they added artificial requirements to the Law of God. Their aim was obviously to please God so that by their repentance they could bring about the restoration of Israel. However, as I pointed out: &quot;Never once does the Author say in Ezra 10 that God was pleased with the man-made covenant. Never once does this text say that God was delighted when the Jews divorced their pagan spouses. Never once does the Bible tell us that God had forgiven these people because of the divorce.&quot;

Of course, you have argued that the author does not say that God punished them or was offended by their actions either. But consider this: in effect, the author is telling us that the Israelites said and did a whole lot of things to try to please God, but God didn&#039;t respond to them at all. Can this lack of response be understood as God&#039;s silent approval of what they said and did? (If I may demonstrate this in a not-so-academic way), imagine if you said and did a whole lot of things in an attempt to please your parents, but they respond with nothing but silence. Could this have been a silent approval? The fact is, the Israelites were expecting something, and God responded by not giving to them what they expected. Would this not be better explained as God&#039;s silent disapproval? 

We can delve even deeper into Biblical Theology (which does underlie my writings even though it might not appear explicitly so). Authorial silence on God&#039;s response towards the Israelites in Ezra 9-10, I propose, can be understood in light of canonical intertextuality: this was precisely the period in which God gave Israel her very last prophets in the Old Testament. Interestingly, in Ezra 9-10 the author does not relate the promises and blessings in Haggai and Zechariah whatsoever, nor do the two prophets respond to the man-made covenant in Ezra 9-10. It would be a defensible thesis to say that Ezra 9-10 was the starting point that consequently (and soon) brought about the Period of Silence between the last prophets and John the Baptist--though I do not claim to have done enough research to sustain this thesis.

Now, onto the topic of the covenant. I basically agree with you on the three kinds of covenants in the Old Testament, for I am a reader of Murray as well. Murray&#039;s formulation is one way of stating the matter; I agree with the content of his formulation, but I don&#039;t necessarily use the same categorization (I will explain this later). 

In Murray&#039;s formulation, there is, as you pointed out, a third category of covenants, namely, ones that believers make with God. Murray&#039;s observation is of course true. However, this has to be qualified with very careful delimitations. When a man makes a covenant with God, if this covenant is to be valid in the divine-human relation, then, as you said, it has to correspond to a covenant that God has already made with men. The man-to-God covenant can be nothing but a renewal or reconfirmation of a God-to-man covenant. In this sense, then, the man-to-God covenant is not really man-t0-God, nor is it really a different type of a covenant. As we see in Jeremiah 34, the prophet speaks in the voice of God, saying that the Israelites had once repented and made covenants with God--the &quot;covenants that they had made&quot; (verses 15, 18). Surely the Israelites were in one sense--secundum quid--the makers of the covenant. Yet, in verse 18, Yahweh calls this covenant &quot;MY covenant&quot;. The covenant was really God&#039;s! God was simpliciter the one who made the covenant, not the Israelites! The Israelites made the covenant only secundum quid, not simpliciter! All that the Israelites did was to re-establish their allegiance to an already-exiting covenant, and only in this sense was the covenant described as having been made by men. Only under this delimitation is a priest allowed to make a covenant with God, but in this sense, the priest is not really making the covenant, because he is not speaking prophetically about any new revelation, nor is he setting any new terms for or giving any new content to the covenant.

But what did Ezra do? Ezra set new terms and conditions for the covenant. He conjured up new covenantal requirements as a priest, not a prophet. He was making a covenant ex nihilo, rather than renewing the covenant that God had made with Israel! This certainly does not fit into Murray&#039;s third category of OT covenants--which in the first instance is not really a self-standing category at all anyway. Thus I do not think Murray&#039;s categorization of OT covenants can be invoked to justify Ezra&#039;s act of making a covenant with God. 

In short, I still think that Ezra&#039;s man-made covenant was the seed of Pharisaism in Second-Temple Judaism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the information. It&#8217;s very helpful in giving me the opportunity to clarify some points. As I said, the divorce per se does not constitutes legalism. I wrote: &#8220;in particular cases such a divorce might have pleased God.&#8221; My point was that the Pharisaism lies in the fact that Ezra made the divorce a covenant requirement&#8211;I will explain this in view of Murray&#8217;s categorization of OT covenants later. </p>
<p>Speaking of Biblical Theology, the chiasm that you pointed out underscores the structural and thus formal centrality of Ezra 9-10, but it says nothing about the content or theological message of the passage. </p>
<p>Narrative critics such as Robert Alter, and commentators who have developed narrative-critical insights of their own such as Bruce Waltke (from a dogmatic viewpoint I completely recognise the theological errors in some of their presuppositions, but that pertains to another discussion), have pointed out that OT authors often use literary structure as a means to convey theological commentary. Chiasm, to give one example that you&#8217;ve mentioned, serves to highlight the passage that lies at the centre of the chiastic structure. There are yet other literary structures, such as &#8220;parallel commentary&#8221; (e.g. the account of Judah in Genesis 38 serving as a commentary on the account of Joseph in the rest of the chapter, and vice versa). </p>
<p>Another form of intra-textual commentary is authorial silence. The Book of Esther is the classic case: the author is completely silent about God, who is not mentioned at all in the entire Book. This silence underscores the theological point that God works providentially through the most ordinary events, and that divine miracles don&#8217;t just take place in ways that are beyond the natural order of things.</p>
<p>There is a more prevalent form of silence on the part of the author or the characters in the OT. Robert Alter points out, &#8220;When someone&#8217;s silence is actually isolated for narration, we may infer that the refusal or avoidance of speech is itself a significant link in the concatenation of the plot&#8221; (Art of Biblical Narrative, 100). Such a silence normally conveys disapproval, condemnation, or other forms of negation. For example, the &#8220;hiatus of silence&#8221; between Genesis 42:1-2 is a confirmation of &#8220;Jacob&#8217;s charge that his sons were simply standing there&#8221; despite the threat of the famine (ibid., 200).</p>
<p>Authorial silence about God&#8217;s response to the Israelites in Ezra 9-10 can also be understood as a form of negative silence. The Israelites make a covenant with God, in which they added artificial requirements to the Law of God. Their aim was obviously to please God so that by their repentance they could bring about the restoration of Israel. However, as I pointed out: &#8220;Never once does the Author say in Ezra 10 that God was pleased with the man-made covenant. Never once does this text say that God was delighted when the Jews divorced their pagan spouses. Never once does the Bible tell us that God had forgiven these people because of the divorce.&#8221;</p>
<p>Of course, you have argued that the author does not say that God punished them or was offended by their actions either. But consider this: in effect, the author is telling us that the Israelites said and did a whole lot of things to try to please God, but God didn&#8217;t respond to them at all. Can this lack of response be understood as God&#8217;s silent approval of what they said and did? (If I may demonstrate this in a not-so-academic way), imagine if you said and did a whole lot of things in an attempt to please your parents, but they respond with nothing but silence. Could this have been a silent approval? The fact is, the Israelites were expecting something, and God responded by not giving to them what they expected. Would this not be better explained as God&#8217;s silent disapproval? </p>
<p>We can delve even deeper into Biblical Theology (which does underlie my writings even though it might not appear explicitly so). Authorial silence on God&#8217;s response towards the Israelites in Ezra 9-10, I propose, can be understood in light of canonical intertextuality: this was precisely the period in which God gave Israel her very last prophets in the Old Testament. Interestingly, in Ezra 9-10 the author does not relate the promises and blessings in Haggai and Zechariah whatsoever, nor do the two prophets respond to the man-made covenant in Ezra 9-10. It would be a defensible thesis to say that Ezra 9-10 was the starting point that consequently (and soon) brought about the Period of Silence between the last prophets and John the Baptist&#8211;though I do not claim to have done enough research to sustain this thesis.</p>
<p>Now, onto the topic of the covenant. I basically agree with you on the three kinds of covenants in the Old Testament, for I am a reader of Murray as well. Murray&#8217;s formulation is one way of stating the matter; I agree with the content of his formulation, but I don&#8217;t necessarily use the same categorization (I will explain this later). </p>
<p>In Murray&#8217;s formulation, there is, as you pointed out, a third category of covenants, namely, ones that believers make with God. Murray&#8217;s observation is of course true. However, this has to be qualified with very careful delimitations. When a man makes a covenant with God, if this covenant is to be valid in the divine-human relation, then, as you said, it has to correspond to a covenant that God has already made with men. The man-to-God covenant can be nothing but a renewal or reconfirmation of a God-to-man covenant. In this sense, then, the man-to-God covenant is not really man-t0-God, nor is it really a different type of a covenant. As we see in Jeremiah 34, the prophet speaks in the voice of God, saying that the Israelites had once repented and made covenants with God&#8211;the &#8220;covenants that they had made&#8221; (verses 15, 18). Surely the Israelites were in one sense&#8211;secundum quid&#8211;the makers of the covenant. Yet, in verse 18, Yahweh calls this covenant &#8220;MY covenant&#8221;. The covenant was really God&#8217;s! God was simpliciter the one who made the covenant, not the Israelites! The Israelites made the covenant only secundum quid, not simpliciter! All that the Israelites did was to re-establish their allegiance to an already-exiting covenant, and only in this sense was the covenant described as having been made by men. Only under this delimitation is a priest allowed to make a covenant with God, but in this sense, the priest is not really making the covenant, because he is not speaking prophetically about any new revelation, nor is he setting any new terms for or giving any new content to the covenant.</p>
<p>But what did Ezra do? Ezra set new terms and conditions for the covenant. He conjured up new covenantal requirements as a priest, not a prophet. He was making a covenant ex nihilo, rather than renewing the covenant that God had made with Israel! This certainly does not fit into Murray&#8217;s third category of OT covenants&#8211;which in the first instance is not really a self-standing category at all anyway. Thus I do not think Murray&#8217;s categorization of OT covenants can be invoked to justify Ezra&#8217;s act of making a covenant with God. </p>
<p>In short, I still think that Ezra&#8217;s man-made covenant was the seed of Pharisaism in Second-Temple Judaism.</p>
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